laminating film supplier

[jake]

Hi guys,

i've been looking through the forum trying to find where i saw where to buy this 'new stuff' but can't find it! so i jumped on google and went digging and came up with this...
www.laminatingwholesalers.com.au/shoppingcart/default.cfm?cat_id=1688

looks to be only $65 shipped for a 100m roll.

what do you think? worth a try or am i totally on the wrong track?

thanks,

jake

[jase]

as long as it's not going to be too heavy as i think laminating filament is rather heavy. it's be damn strong, but also hard to repair.
though i have been out of the flying for a while so i could be wrong.

[chamm37]

What are you going to be coving....like what plane and what are you intending to do with the plane and how are you going to fly it??? it will all depend on what plane it is and what you are going to use the plane for like frontside, DSing all that stuff will depend on what you will get.....you can give me a ring if you wish or pm me and i can help ya if ya want

Regards,
Chris ;D

[jake]

thanks for the replys,

i'm thinking of going for the 125mil stuff and getting the big roll because it's about the same as a couple of rolls of profilm anyway. it'll most likely end up on bee's, moths etc but no plans to really ds them heavily.

I would also like to know if that is the correct laminating film to use (hate to buy it and find it wasn't what i thought!) from what i can see it is,

thanks,
jake

[jase]

i've got a feeling it's gonna be way too heavy... even coloured tape on a bee ads a significant weight overall.

you'd be better off sticking to profilm or even coloured tape if you want a nimble and light combat wing.

just my opinion.

[thevon]

Guys, we did have a thread about laminating film on the forum but it's somehow got lost. There's lots of info on laminating film on RC Groups. Most of it's about what Predator called Burrly or New Stuff, etc and it relates to the very heavy film (which is quite hard to source). This is an amalgum of various posts and threads I've done.

I am pretty much sold on film for foamies. I just covered the Ozprey wing for the 3rd time with laminating film, and it flies so cleanly. I'm really convinced laminating film is the way to go for covering foamy wings. So easy to strip the old film off, and you find the EPP underneath is like new, and it's quick to iron a new film covering on, over elevons and all. For me, gone are the days of stripping off tape and pulling up bits of EPP. No need to worry about taping or Super 77. It's perfect for SC - very puncture resistant. And they just fly better with film - more slippery in the air. Less building and fixing time and more high quality flying time.

I've had great success with thinner films and I don't think you should be using the heavy Burrly style films unless you're building a plane to DS in 30 knots plus. I have narrowed down to using 80 micron mostly, and 150 micron for heavy builds. I used to get it from a local laminating firm at Redcliffe but they went bust, so I chased around and got it from Direct National at Kelvin Grove. Dave Arnold is an expert on these films and gave me some advice.

He advised that there are many types of film, but the Burrly type is a simple polyester (PET) film. There are also polypropylene films which are softer, more rubbery and pliable (I think that’s what Ballisticover is) and they are printable. I've only used PET film and from what I could work out all of the other types are much more expensive.

He reckoned Fuji laminating films have the reputation of being the toughest and best quality. But as Ian said beware that the total thickness specified (eg 150 micron) has 2 components: the hard film and the glue. Different brands vary in the ratio of hard to glue, so you could buy another 150 and find that when you iron it on the hard layer is thinner.

Laminating businesses see a thick glue layer as a low quality feature, ie he indicated that the more expensive films have a higher PET to glue ratio. But for ironing onto EPP, a thicker layer of glue is better for us so if you're sourcing films for the first time it's probably best to find out the glue ratio and buy the (possibly) cheaper ones with more glue. The last lot of film I got was Fuji and I reckon the glue layer was thinner than the Redcliffe stuff I used to get - it's good but doesn't seem to stick not quite as well. So if you're asking, try to get a film with a thick glue backing.

I've been having a great time playing with much thinner films and finding that 80 micron is fantastic for most foamies, and 150 micron is the thickest I use. We just don't get the sort of conditions to justify 300 micron(Burrly). The 80 micron film is so easy to work with, overlapping etc but about 10 times tougher than Profilm/ Oracover/ Monokote etc.

It's great stuff to have around for all sorts of other reasons too. Nothing sticks to the shiny side so for a lot of moldie repairs you can use it like Mylar to mold over the epoxy etc. Balsa elevons are stiff and durable covered with thin lam film. It's a new thing to work with, but well worth the effort.

No, laminating film doesn't have to be heavier. The film is so stiff and strong and puncture resistant that you don't even need to use any bi-di tape at all. (yes, that's right ... none at all!). I've never managed to rip the 80 micron. Just where it hits rocks it will dag up (small chunks torn) but it just doesn't split. So I think for most foamies, a lighter film would be fine, eg 40 - 50 micron.

Importantly, it's best to coat the raw EPP with 1 or 2 coats of thinned goop and let that dry before ironing the film on. It really helps the film to stick better, and also really protects the EPP from melting if you get too hot with the iron (which you don't need to do).

It sticks glue side to glue side, but it doesn't really stick glue side to shiny side. The thinner films can be overlapped and stuck down like Monokote, but (like Monokote) it's not a bond and it can lift easily with a knife, and will pucker up if it gets scrunched. I overlap it all the time on fins and elevons and it's OK until it gets bent or knocked and the overlap lifts a bit - then I usually just tape it down with a bit of clear tape, or iron it down again.

The main reason people find Lam Film weird is that it has no colour. This is a real plus when you're covering since you don't have to worry about neat cuts etc!! Just cover the whole thing, elevons and all.

The easiest and most effective way to get colouring is to make a pattern with strips of coloured Zagi tape (which can be ironed nice and hot when you need to) and I also put fluoro vinyl on the wingtips. Problem with vinyl is you can't iron it.

You can paint the film, but it doesn't sticl well so you need to clean the film with acetone first - even so, it will scratch off. I like using tile re-colour paint - it hangs on better, but can still scratch off a bit. Felix has a method of putting paint colour under the film which he reckons works.

I would like to see you buy a roll from that supplier - if it works well, other guys will buy lengths off you for sure.

Andrew

[jake]

WOW! I really appreciate you putting the time in to post that explanation!

Definately going to give it a go now! I'll post some info when I finally decide on a plane to buy!

thanks again,

Jake

[jase]

there ya go... an answer from the master himself....... told ya i've been out of the game for too long....

[thevon]

Too easy! Anyway try it out - see if you like it. It is quite a different animal to work with than tape or Profilm etc, but I like it. It's a lot less stress, better performance, and less maintenance. But it does look weird when your plane's covered and you can see it totally naked thru the covering!

By the way (I said this somewhere else too) I don't do coverings on EPP fuselages now, either. I smear a couple of layers of thinned goop on the EPP heavily several times and let dry. Then at least 2 layers of bi-di tape over the goop, sanding or acetone the tape between layers. Then more goop smeared over the tape. Then just spray acrylic touch-up paint directly onto the dry goop. It doesn't look as flash (has a very matt look) compared to Profilm covering but it's much less work, very tough, and you don't get film peeling off everywhere. If damaged, bog it up a bit, stick more tape on, smear some goop and spray the patch. If it's quicker and easier I'm all for it.

[jase]

andrew. you would want that goop mixture preety think wouldn't you... almost fibreglass resin thin??

[thevon]

Jase, you mix xylene or toluene with the goop to make it like warm honey. To spread it, if it's something small just smear it with your fingers using a glove. To cover a whole wing the simplest way is to get a bit of mattress foam an inch cube or so, hold it in some narrow pliers and use it like a paintbrush. Chuck the foam each time.

Another thing ... get rolls of at least 500mm wide. That way they're heaps wide enough to cover most foamie wings full-span. 330mm is too narrow. 500mm is great, but even if you get a 800mm wide roll you won't regret it.

On the RC Groups thread mentioned above, some guys in Sth Africa said this:

It turns out that the PET films are the same clear stuff that 2l and 500ml coke bottles are made of - and its indestructible! Its also relatively cheap. No wonder the slopers are raving about the durability of the laminating stuff. As a matter of interest it has a melting point of 260*C, and a "Glass Temp" of 75*C. ie it becomes moldable or formable above 75 but only melts at 260, so a big margin to work with if ironing it at around 100*C. The temp required to activate the glue is probably more important.

[jake]

Righto!

ordered a 638mm wide roll of the 80 micron so we'll see how it goes!

[Pij]

Jake, I would think that's a good choice. I would have bought a roll of the 80 micron 638 wide myself - but I'd never use 100m! Could I buy some off your roll when the time comes to get some, please?

I've go to agree with Andrew's main points - it's slick, incredibly strong, makes bi-di tape redundant, gives a lighter finished wing than traditional methods, and is good to work with in most situations. Just one thing - Predator overseas claimed to have done all the groundwork comparing brands etc, and reckons the one he ended up with has the right UV protection and exact balance between toughness and workable-ness. If all that is true, we may find our local brands aren't quite perfect - I dunno though.

Looking forward to hearing how it works for you Jake.

[thevon]

Pij, I'm pretty sure that as we try out a few brands, we'll find one that's ideal. Predator's work was really aimed at super thick film for DS, and it's hard to handle. For example, I don't think yoiu can cover most planes full span with Burrly (300+ micron) but I've covered the Bat and Ozprey full span, and it shapes the whole wing nicely. Much, much nicer to work with than the really thick stuff for foamies.

Jake, I'd like to buy a length from you too, to compare with what I've used. So stock up on your cardboard tubes for posting this stuff!

Andrew

[jake]

Well I bought myself a duck this weekend so I suppose we'll have a naked duck the 2nd!

Has anyone had any problems with installing ribbon spars before? i just filleted the trailing edge by accident! eep! Did the same thing with my wasp. All glued up now though. Is there a trick to cutting the slits? I drew a line on the blade as a guide, might try to make a balsa jig next time.

I'm more than happy to post some out to whoever wants it, I doubt I'll use 100m!!! Andrew if your not really in a rush to get some I'm thinking of coming down to try sc one weekend in the next couple of weeks so i could probably meet you down there!

Jake,