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Post by thevon on Jul 19, 2009 16:47:11 GMT 10
HI-START EXPERIMENTING Mikey100 and I have recently blown the budget on light high performing 3m thermal moldies (my Espada RL and his Pike Superior). During the week we felt a bit frustrated that with other commitments, travelling to Harrisville for the comp was really out of the question. Mike and I started to discuss buying a winch so we could get some thermalling on our own terms, and I nearly did, but then I had reservations about it. So we decided to spend some time experimenting with hi-starting the big 3m thermallers – the advantages being ease of setup, lower cost, less fuss in operating, and more rapid turnaround between flights. But would it work well enough, or just be frustrating?? We had our first outing at Bracken Ridge today, just using the gear we had. My setup consisted of my 7.5m Hosemonster bungee, 30m of shock cord doubled to 15m, and 7m of thin surgical rubber doubled to 3.5m These 3 were all hooked end to end, and 90m of pink brickies twine used as the light cord. The rubber things are supposed to stretch 3:1, and the shock cord 1:1, giving theoretically about 48m of stretch. This was used to launch the 3m planes. The estimation of stretch was conservative. As we got confident we were hauling it back 60 paces. For launching the Starling Pro Mike used Garth’s bungee which is 30m of single shock cord, with 60m of fishing line. He pulled it back 30m. We ran our own competition! We scored it the same way as a thermal comp, with a point for each second in the air, and bonus points for landing. For the bonus points I made up a scoring line, with a circle made of air-cell, pegged to a rope with a knot exactly every metre. I stuck a bit of duct tape in each metre section with the points written on it. I only flew the Espada. Mike flew the Starling Pro before he felt confident enough to risk the Pike. We used launch modes for launching, and the line was hooked to the normal towhook position (as for winching). All of the launches were fine – there were no nasty surprises. At first we did a bit of tweaking – the Starling popped off early so had to get a bit of down trim, and my Espada needed more up trim to get it to go up hard, but after the first couple of launches it was uneventful. I went a bit too far with the up trim and started to get some stall flicks about 20 metres up but the plane recovered easily and kept going. We certainly never got any 10 minute flights, but it was excellent. Between 11am and 2pm we pretty much kept on the hop the whole time and (after a few practices) had 8 scored launches each. These are the results: AvB MIN SEC BONUS SCORE 2 2 0 122 3 3 0 183 2 25 95 240 2 20 95 235 5 50 35 385 2 59 0 179 4 35 55 330 4 35 0 275 TOTAL 1949 Mike 3 40 80 300 1 51 0 111 1 59 90 209 2 42 70 232 1 44 90 194 1 35 70 165 2 23 80 223 4 13 95 348 TOTAL 1782 As you can see, Mike did really well with the Starling Pro! (only his last 2 launches were with the Pike). I am so impressed with those Starling Pros. A much under-estimated plane. They really float well and behave perfectly. It was a great little session and we learnt a lot. At first I was doing the zoom, but we found that if the line tension goes slack near the top it was better just to keep flying forward – the plane kept climbing – and let it just fly off the line. But if you got a really good launch, went up fast and there was still some tension at the top, you could get a bit of a zoom and ping. We unanimously declared the day to be an outrageous success. Nothing like the power and height of a winch launch, but a great learning experience. We’re keen to get a long, strong bungee to give a longer stretch.
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Post by mikey100 on Jul 19, 2009 18:00:04 GMT 10
As Andrew said... "a good day was had by all!" ;D ;D ;D ;D Andrew flew some great thermal circles, gaining lift from the small bubbles that came through. Anyone who knows where we flew would know it is NOT thermal-heaven, sorrounded by houses, paddocks and footy-fields, so Andrews 5min+ flight was amazing! The Starling was a treat to fly, but no match for his Espada with almost twice the wingspan, but it did manage a 3min+ flight with it. (slope trimming paid off). The Pike was able to fly off the bigger bungee and get higher launches, and got a 4min+ flight on its second launch. Not bad for a beginner!! Andrews concept and scoring meant landing was of utmost importance in scoring, and my usual, "anywhere on the ground in one piece" wasn't going to cut it. So I must point out that although Andrew 'out-durationed' me, I 'out-landing-bonused' him, 575v280. We learnt a lot today, but the icing was all planes home in one piece and no dodgee takeoffs or landings...sort of! Thanks Andrew for the help. We have set a great basic starting point today, and with better bungee etc, it is looking good for the future. Gotta say, I only learnt to fly with a Bee 12 months ago, so moving to a 3.3m monster was a big step, but they are beautiful to fly, and make improving easier. Anyone who can fly a slopie needs to give the idea of a f3j thermal plane a thought. Also, thankyou Multiplex for your Cockpit sx...so easy to use for this sort of plane.
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Post by nick on Jul 19, 2009 18:50:56 GMT 10
well done guys
sounds like fun, just watch you don't have a line snap and get thoes metal shackles coming back at mach 2. i have had some bungee cord about 20 meters long, wrap around my legs, and a few swear words came out as well as some nice marks!
how high were your launches andrew and mike?
i went to bk and it was light but some good thermals were coming through.
regards nick
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Post by thevon on Jul 19, 2009 19:49:12 GMT 10
I think Mike really understates his flying and thermalling, and overstates mine. It was amazing how well the Starling Pro flew. The thing that got me the longer flights was ranging further away to the NE and sometimes finding really good lift for a couple of minutes. Mike tended to stay over the field. Also Mike's S Pro launches with the single bungee weren't nearly as high as you could get off the bigger hi-start. I honestly suspect that for glide ratio and floaty "hanging in there" it was a very close match between the Espada and the S Pro. Very impressive.
OK, OK Mike I'll concede you blew me away on bonus points (darn). I kept trying to go round for another circle to extend the flight time and it didn't pay off when I had to land short 3 times! Very frustrating!
When I first dorked the Espada in Mike was critical ... "hard landing". I said hey, have you seen how they land at the comps??? Once I'd put him straight on that, it was no holds barred and he really spiked it in hard a couple of times! That poor Starling Pro!
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Post by thevon on Aug 1, 2009 18:18:12 GMT 10
“Well, $#!!t wasn’t that a huge success!” Mike declared as we were walking back to the cars. And he was right, it was a very agreeable day at Bracken Ridge.
We’d organized a session to test out the new heavy duty hi-start system Mike bought from Sailplane.aus. But first thing this morning a friend called up, saying he was taking his Cessna 210 for a run and asked if I’d like to go and take some aerial photos of his new place out near Dayboro. You bet! Being a Saturday morning with perfect weather, Redcliffe airport was abuzz with all sorts of aero activity. We saw choppers practicing autorotation landings and a newly rebuilt Gypsy Moth going for its maiden flight, accompanied by a vintage Moth monoplane (I think). We had a great flight and I got a good view of Sids, Lemontree and Kev’s Ridges – all places we’ve sloped near Mt Mee/ Dayboro. We even zigzagged over Ocean View etc to do some scouting for new sloping sites, but we found none!
So I didn’t get to Bracken Ridge till nearly midday. Mike and Garth had been there for a while and when I pulled up I could see their new (used) Kahu DLG’s floating around. Ken then turned up for a short break between work appointments. Bracken Ridge has now been fenced off, and now they’ve also blocked our secret track entrance with some huge concrete blocks as well! I was disappointed that Mike hadn’t shifted them out of the way (they only way about 4 tons each).
So for a while it was DLG fun with Ken throwing his Alula and the Kahu’s doing some amazing flights. Garth has a good throw and was getting lots of height with his, managing to catch some really serious thermal lift. The second big flight I saw him have, he got so high it was hard working out what the plane was doing, and Garth (getting tired by this time) had trouble bringing it down! I gladly obliged, but found that it needed quite a push forward on the elevator to get it down. When we looked at it on the ground I was a bit shocked at how floppy the ailerons were!
The hi-start was fantastic. The launches were brilliant. Not far off a winch launch height. Nothing much more you could say about it – it was absolutely excellent. We were pulling it back about 70 metres, so we can still go another 30 more or so if we were keen. Again we put out our “landing bonus” measuring rope to practice landings. Periodically these big areas of lift would develop to the NE and we each had some full 10 min flights. Early on Mike and I were both way, way up when Garth’s Kahu appeared climbing to our height, from a hand launch! Once later in the day we were both sharing the thermal with a big, smooth turning pelican. Glad to say we each scored a 100pt landing as well as some other high scores too.
But other times you’d search and nothing – back on the ground in 4 mins. It was really excellent thermal and landing practice. We tweaked launch settings and hook position to optimize the launches.
For a while I spent some time hand throwing the Espada, doing big floaty circles, and hand catching. I love that. I tried moving the CG slightly forward and was disappointed so put it back again.
Again I have to praise the Starling Pro. So much so that I honestly feel that it loses nothing to the big 3m planes. It really is incredible. Mike had some 10 min flights with that too. It launches beautifully and floats amazingly.
Good hi-starts are great value – lots of launch for the buck. Easy to cart around, and if the wind changes and you have to swap ends, it’s no big hassle. I was going to try this one out with my (heavier) Fazo, but after walking back to the car to get it and putting it together I found I'd left the elevators at home! Oh, well - next time.
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Post by mikey100 on Aug 1, 2009 18:51:02 GMT 10
As Andrew said- what a successful day. My new bungee is made up of 33m of heavy-duty bungee (11mm OD, 7mm ID, 2mm wall), 100m of maisons twine, a couple of heavy-duty snap-clips and rings and a chute- 133m relaxed length. Pulled it to 60 paces for the Starling and 110-120 paces for the Espada and Pike. These distances allowed the planes to be self-launched without the need for someone else to be the thrower, and a small (app20m) ping off the top of the launch with tension still on the line. Estimate launches of app150m (450 ft). Almost every launch as straight as an arrow, with corrections an easy matter. We both had a couple of 10 min+ flights with our planes and only sore necks forcing a landing. The Pike is such an easy plane to fly, and the Starling competitive with the big thermal ones, just not as smooth in the air as it is only half the weight. The Starling Pro at app $500 for the complete plane is really such great value for a European moldie as it flies thermal and slope so well. I have learnt so much with these planes on my winching and bungeeing outings, that I don't just have to land "ANYWHERE ON THE GROUND IN ONE PIECE IS OK BY ME" anymore....well. maybe sometimes!
Garth got sooo high with his DHL Kuha, that I had trouble even seeing it. He seems to be able to throw it about 40m, and gets some great long flights. His new passion!!
Andrew's Espada is so smooth in the circles and his spot landings make me ashamed....
All planes home in one piece....again. ;D ;D ;D
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Post by thevon on Aug 1, 2009 20:53:05 GMT 10
Spot landings waddya talking about?? You got a couple of 90 point landings I seem to recall??!!
P.S. - One thing I learned yesterday is that you need a neck strap for your TX if you're going to self-launch. I don't normally use a neck strap, but Mike loaned me his - I couldn't do it without the strap.
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Post by thevon on Aug 9, 2009 17:10:20 GMT 10
HISTART LAUNCHING - MORE SUCCESS Today Mike and I had another session of hi-start launching the big moldies with his new hi-start bungee thing. We did it at Bracken Ridge again – a great spot. So much empty space. Here’s a picture: See what a wide open area it is, without obstructions. Except for that one metal post … now hold that thought … more about that later. Mike and Garth were there well before me and Garth left about half an hour after I arrived. But man, Garth was thermalling so amazingly well with the 2.5m Albatross. Seriously, that guy has talent. While I was there he had a 25min flight, and he cut the flight short to bring it back closer. At a lower level he exploited bubbles of lift, like he did with the DLG a coupla weeks ago. It was a good display. As previously the light wind swung from SE to NE so we switched ends. Mike and I had great launches. As well as the floaty Espada I took the Fazo as I wanted to see how a heavier faster 3m launched on the bungee. I expected it to be a bit sludgy but not so at all! In fact it got probably the best launches of all! Maybe its faster cruise speed got it up faster, before the rubber went slack, and there was enough punch left for a bit of a zoom. Later I’ll put up a bit of video of a launch. The height we’re getting is just great. I can see we’re going to end up in an argument with the hard-core winchheads about whether we get launch-type heights! Mike is sure we are. I think that a good winch launch and ping is higher, but the hi-start height is more than enough for serious thermal practice. We were on the go the whole time, either launching the other guy, or self-launching if he’s in the air. I even had a crack at some F3B style dive-ins and laps. But I’ve never even seen any F3B videos yet, so I had no idea what I was doing. So after the first one I rang Ken to ask a few questions, then had a few more goes. I think I need a hard winch launch and lots of ballast to feel the full effect, but it was fun anyway. Then Mike decided to add length to the tow line. We had 100m of line, and we increased it to 125 then 150m, each time being rewarded with better height. Plus, the parachute seemed to get blown back closer to us so the walk was less. It just got better and better. We just kept launching and launching. For a while we just sank every time with 2-3min flights, then the lift came through and we got some longer 7-8min flights. But nothing as long as last week. I’m glad Garth wasn’t there to show us up. One problem though was that with the extra line length we were now taking up the whole length of the field, so I had to get my brain around the fact that there wasn’t any field left on the downwind side of the launch spot. The ground dropped away only about 15m away. Three times I thought I was landing on the flat, as the plane disappeared out of view – but it landed in soft garden, so no damage. I really enjoyed working bubbles of lift low over the field. First time I’ve had much success at it, and I stayed up a good few minutes at times and at one stage worked the Espada back up to reasonable height. I was concentrating on this, when suddenly there was a CRACK, followed by some very emotional expletives from Mike. He had been coming in for another perfect landing but hadn’t seen the steel post. It was very sad. It literally ripped right thru the centre panel, spar and all. I felt really bad for Mike, having done the same sort of thing more than once myself. After recovering from the shock of it, he refused to let it get to him, but it did put a pall over the day and we packed up. He reckons he’d rather buy a new centre panel than fix it. I think it’s not such a hard fix if you can repair the spar properly.
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Post by mikey100 on Aug 9, 2009 17:44:26 GMT 10
What can I say!
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Post by sean on Aug 9, 2009 17:52:57 GMT 10
I'm so sorry to see that Mike! Talk about Murphy's Law. If it's any consolation I flew my very first mouldie (Carbon Bird) into a stump I didn't see on it's first day out. Bashed up the LE pretty badly. Since repairing it, it's still flying 2 years later.
That damage does looks repairable, looks like a fairly clean break.
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Post by thevon on Aug 9, 2009 18:55:31 GMT 10
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Post by mikey100 on Aug 9, 2009 19:05:51 GMT 10
Sean, the spar is broken...is that really repairable? Who could do it? Any takers and how much?
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Post by nick on Aug 9, 2009 19:10:11 GMT 10
bummer mike,
it's a sad day when you have a smash, i know that feeling,
sorry to see the damage, but it's only money and no one is hurt,
in my limited experience with aerodynamics mike, the break is right at the highest load point, it would have to be a super fix but ask sean or jeff irvine, he is a builder so he could give you the right advise
regards nick
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Post by skyboyken on Aug 9, 2009 19:28:28 GMT 10
+1 for taking the wing to Jeff or Sean for advice.
Also, the Pike Superior is a very popular plane. If you go hunting there is every likelihood you can find a secondhand centre panel, or a plane which has one or both tips destroyed and can be bought for spares. As you may know Mike, I did exactly this to get spares for my beloved Caracho, and there are more Superiors around than Carachos!
BTW, I know that 'kicked in the stomach' feeling that goes with this kind of occurrence. It's pretty much a rite of passage in this hobby, so congratulations for getting there quickly, it bodes well for your future flying!
Ken.
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Post by sean on Aug 9, 2009 19:39:40 GMT 10
You can fix the spar but it does add a lot of complexity to the job. You need to bridge the caps with carbon and rebuild the shear webs. If you can find a cheap centre section that probably is the way to go but failing that a repair is definitely doable. I haven't personally done a repair like this but I've seen lot of info on RCG and elsewhere on how to go about it - it's definitely not the end of the wing. At least being near the centre of the wing any added weight from repairs won't make a wing heavy.
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