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Post by ding on Jan 10, 2009 20:43:46 GMT 10
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Post by thevon on Jan 10, 2009 21:03:11 GMT 10
Steve I agree - would like to try a LEG Guppy as well.
Late this arvo I had my first decent flight with the Swinger. About 13 knots SE at Woody Point, which is a fairly small gentle slope. I posted this report in the RCG Swinger thread and the Team Monkey guys who designed it tell me it needs more wind and near vertical lift, so I’m looking forward to trying it at SC. It will be in its element there when the lift’s good.
My apologies for naïve comments and questions, as I’ve never had a fishy type plane before and my left thumb has not yet become good friends with a rudder. Wow, the rudder authority is amazing! Never been able to zigzag a plane like that before!
When I tried it in light air at Beechmont earlier this week it seemed too elevator twitchy and pitchy, so I had added quite a bit of nose weight. Today it seemed very stable but not soaring with a lot of performance, so I moved the CG back and it flew better.
I also have a camber slider set up on my MPX thingypit SX, so I’ve been varying the drop of the ailerons during the flight. It doesn’t seem to have a big effect. Just flies a bit slower with more camber, but not much better climb performance.
My main concern is that I can’t do decent loops. It does great rolls, is unbelievably easy to fly inverted (same performance as right way up!) but even when I dive fast and pull up, it usually stops nose up at the top of the loop and falls out. I tried using less elevator and had more success, so I dialed the elevator rate back a lot. Seemed better but I still couldn’t generally do nice round loops.
I also increased the snap flap a lot (to make it more like 4 – axis but mixed with elevator) and I couldn’t tell much difference – it certainly didn’t help me to get better loops. The Team Monkey guys say that’s been their experience too.
My Swinger’s wing foil is fairly angular rather than curved like a proper airfoil. What I mean is that from the LE it rises fairly flat to the spar, then bends in a hump over the spar, then is fairly flat back to the TE. It's symmetrical; same top and bottom. I wondered if mine was more so from using laminating film instead of tape (makes it much stiffer), but to be honest I expected that being stiffer and stronger would help it hold a round shape, rather than causing a more localized bend over the spar.
Also my ailerons “step up” from the wing on the underside. I think because I clamped my wing TE’s while the glue dried, making the 2 x 3mm TE depron layers a bit squashed.
It’s the easiest thing I’ve ever landed, I think. Can’t explain it exactly but probably due to the low weight and low stall speed, you seem to be able to put it down very gently. Not like my other faster EPP foamies! It’s so responsive that even in an “unscheduled” landing you can flick a quick roll it so it lands flat at any time! Also if you have a bit of speed, it skims along nicely on that big belly.
I came home after a 30min fly with a grin, and am looking forward to trying it at Shorncliffe.
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Post by chamm37 on Jan 10, 2009 23:02:18 GMT 10
Sounds like a winner Andrew....i am ordering some foam soon so i might have to build on aswell andsee how she handles with me haveing some experience doing 3D aeobatics might be able to put her through its paces ;D
Maybe even teach you something instead of u teaching me somthing lol
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Post by thevon on Jan 11, 2009 7:39:08 GMT 10
I wouldn't get too wildly excited just yet. I think the Swinger is fun, but pretty basic. It's very light and not very aerodynamically efficient, so planes like the Le Fish, Guppy etc would be better performers and would be more durable too. I still haven't had a fly at SC with it yet.
Ding, I wonder if the Le Fish would be more all-round useable than the Guppy? My thing is 46" and seems to be a reasonably high wing loading. I suspect the Guppy would be heavier so would need very strong lift (but maybe with a better foil it would perform a bit better too). The 66" Le Fish would be less nimble at SC but maybe you could fly it in a wider range of conditions?? If you do think of getting one at some stage, keep me in the loop - I could be keen.
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Post by ding on Jan 11, 2009 10:09:48 GMT 10
I wouldn't get too wildly excited just yet. I think the Swinger is fun, but pretty basic. It's very light and not very aerodynamically efficient, so planes like the Le Fish, Guppy etc would be better performers and would be more durable too. I still haven't had a fly at SC with it yet. Ding, I wonder if the Le Fish would be more all-round useable than the Guppy? My thing is 46" and seems to be a reasonably high wing loading. I suspect the Guppy would be heavier so would need very strong lift (but maybe with a better foil it would perform a bit better too). The 66" Le Fish would be less nimble at SC but maybe you could fly it in a wider range of conditions?? If you do think of getting one at some stage, keep me in the loop - I could be keen. Thevon - I've been away and generally busy for some time now (pretty much since about mid -nov) so I haven't really taken in what you've done. I gather that the new plane is depron etc which is very light. This is probably affecting how it carries it's speed - hence falling out of loops. I'd like one of those guppies but there are no firm plans in place as I'll have to have a think about it. However I think I'd really enjoy a proper aerobatic epp slopey as I get bored pretty much instantly with wings unless there is combat involved. I have a copy of a SIG Ninja which I made in the early 90's which I have had a tremendous amount of enjoyment out of. I still have it dowstairs but it's a bit tattered. It's not really suitable for SC though but I could fly it for a quick demo out there. Anyway, I do crave this class of glider. I'm not sure what happened to the original but it was common for me to buy a kit and copy it. I think it may have been someone elses although I can't remember. I would have the templates for cutting the wing somewhere... www.sigmfg.com/IndexText/SIGRC63.html
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Post by thevon on Jan 11, 2009 14:04:50 GMT 10
Thanks Steve. We'd love to see you show us a few moves with an aerobatic sloper at SC. You'd love it and we'd love to watch it!
I think the fishy aerobats would be lots more fun at SC than the Ninja. (I'm no expert, but ...) apparently the big flat fuse really helps with knife edge and other aerobatics. I'm amazed how different the Swinger handles compared to my others. You can really waggle violently with the rudder - almost make it stop sideways on full rudder. SC is a very small flying area so you don't want a plane that needs lots of room to get wound up. Something light that can flip around in a small area is good.
Yes the Team Monkey guys said the same thing about the low weight meaning low inertia to carry thru loops. Apparently in stronger more vertical SC type lift it can do consecutive loops.
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Post by ding on Jan 11, 2009 14:48:58 GMT 10
Yep, the new designs are most likely far better than the Ninja as designs have moved on. However as a class of aeroplane I can definitely say it's fun.
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Post by skyboyken on Jan 11, 2009 22:37:49 GMT 10
So far, the best slope aerobat I've ever seen is Thevon's Slope Rico !! The second best is the modified CS Eagle flown by the really good pilot at SC (I do know there's more than one!) whose name escapes me just now - is it Dave? That's followed closely by Felix's Fleagle. The Slope Rico (as opposed to all the other flavours of Rico) has a symmetrical tip airfoil and a cambered root airfoil. This is exactly the same combo as the Guppy, Le Fish and Wasabi. So it seems that's the formula that works. If you wanted to roll your own the Wasabi airfoils and the Le Fish airfoils have been released, so the data is available. I have a Le Fish kit and will build it as soon as the Armidale thermal comp is over. I'm too busy fitting out and repairing mouldies till then. I do believe it'll go really well at SC and I'll certainly be flying it there. There's a guy in Victoria who wants to promote precision slope aerobatics using electric assist gliders (i.e. a Slope Rico with a small brushless in the nose) but personally I'd rather use a pure glider and do 'freestyle'. By the way, even when I do precision maneuvres they come out freestyle . Go Great! Ken.
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Post by felix on Jan 11, 2009 23:33:04 GMT 10
Hey Andrew good to see the swinger finished mate, well done and look forward to seeing her doin its thing. My building has ground to a halt lately, biz is taking up all my most of my free time and have a side project building a canoe for a few camping/hunting/fishing trips planned this year (huge learning curve here! ) …….haven’t been totally idle though, have drawn plans for my own 60” swinger inspired design (entirely coreflute with an epp nose), a fiberglass rod skeleton looking 3mtr sand dune/wave soarer (more art then plane lol) and the fleagle is getting a revamp to make it a little more suitable for shornecliffe -will post up some progress on that one soon. Also have yet another bee kit ready for another round of mods. Ken the flyer you are referring to is mark, the Canterbury eagle of his is an amazing build and he has some serious skill behind the sticks. Btw thanks for the kudos on the fleagle, the day of the last prang I actually could do stalled rolls! Nose up near the stall, snap flap on, roll to inverted losing 3-4 feet, full up stick to catch the fall then a roll out to level again losing another 3-4 feet…..the Canterbury eagle wing is really something special. By the way I am taking your advice and adding a rudder, also will have a new more durable fuse design and changing to larger aileron servos so I can just plonk it down in a bush without fear of shedding another servo. Hurry up and get that le fish built, always wanted to see one of these flying ;D.
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Post by ding on Jan 12, 2009 7:08:59 GMT 10
I've got a Bullet (which needs minor repairs) which is the slope version of the Rico. I can't see me flying it at SC though . Unfortunately I only got to fly it briefly when it was new but it didn't strike me as a super good aerobatic plane at the time Maybe with some sorting.
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Post by thevon on Jan 12, 2009 7:35:23 GMT 10
Yeah that's the thing. SC is such a small and limited spot to fly but like a lot of us, it's the closest and most frequent place I fly. Hence the quest to find something "different" to fly there which would help me learn more aerobatics, and hence the Swinger as a first tryout. I agree with Ken, the Rico is amazing, but too big and too dangerous to fly at SC. I'm really looking forward to seeing a Le Fish sometime.
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Post by thevon on Jan 13, 2009 12:21:52 GMT 10
Gerard has suggested the Axis 50 as another option: www.futureslopedesigns.com/Home.htmlI'm not super-impressed with the Swinger as it needs quite a lot of lift to fly, problem with wing foil shape, too brittle, etc. Probably great if you have a spot with lots of wind and lift but we are plagued with light winds here. But since I have more Depron, rather than buy a different plane I'm going to have another go at a Swinger and make some improvements/ modifications. (when work permits).
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Post by sean on Jan 13, 2009 12:33:37 GMT 10
If you're keen Andrew it'd be fun to design something to suit exactly what you're after? I'd be happy to cut some EPP cores and a fuse. I'm thinking something along the lines of the Le Fish but a little sleeker so it retains energy a little better in marginal conditions.
Sean.
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Post by skyboyken on Jan 13, 2009 22:06:36 GMT 10
Ding, the Bullet came much later than the Rico. It has a wing optimised for speed - I forget what section he used. There's 4 or 5 versions of the Rico, basically the same fuse with different wings. The slope version is what Thevon has - it's the dedicated aerobat version. Future Slope Designs planes are sold in Oz by Kane at www.slopeplanes.com . I've met Kane once, he's very keen to promote slope flying and he is trying to stock a range of the good stuff. I haven't yet done business with him. Ken.
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Post by thevon on Jan 14, 2009 12:08:46 GMT 10
Ken, great tip, thanks. I've emailed Kane to ask if he's thinking of stocking the Axis 50 - it's not shown on his site.
Sean - YES!!! I'd love to. If you can cut some cores and a fuse, I would be very keen! If it turns out good, call it the Mickey (small annoying bird). It would be FUN! Hey cut a couple of sets, you make one too, and we can compare the final products! The aim has to be CHEAP construction and tough!
Actually I was already dreaming of getting some Hummer cores from you .... that thing was impressive. Reaper and JW60 don't look so interesting any more ... !
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