Dynamic Soaring - general crapping on about it.

[thevon]

As I said in the Drongo thread, I’m keen to try DS which seems to be the buzz thing in the world of slope soaring. If you don’t know what it is, it’s even explained in Wikipedia, including some incredible speed records etc.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_soaring
There are some good descriptions of how it’s done, eg
www.predatorwings.com/How%20it%20works.htm
www.charlesriverrc.org/articles/flying/markdrela_ds.htm#How%20and%20Why
and this article contains lots of links
www.aeroexperiments.org/dynamicsoaring.shtml

If you search you’ll find lots of info. But despite reading this stuff the whole concept still seems very weird to me. I was asking Ezza about it and thought I’d pass on his comments here (below)

[thevon]

I was asking Eric whether the Bushnell speed gun was any good, and he sent me a video of some Aussie guys obviously having problems with getting readings from their gun.
www.speedfreeks.com/videos.php?action=show&id=4
I replied that “I couldn't quite understand why it looks like they're taking their speed readings at the top of the loop as I thought the plane went fastest going into the bottom turn?”

Eric’s reply:
I usually take the reading at the top of the loop as well. Mainly because, most ds sites, I am standing at the top. It is also more dangerous, to stand at the bottom of the circuit, as the plane is coming straight down at you. The bottom turn is usually where a plane will fail as well. However some people prefer to stand on the bottom, and like you say that is where the fastest speeds are.

Also, some times when you are ds'ing, the wind will back off and you lose speed.... so a quick landing is required. This can be challenging when you are standing down the backside, with no lift. This is why foamies are excellent. Glass planes are HEAPS easier to ds.

The biggest challenge is finding good sites. I know of some good ones but most have bad landing zones. A lot of the good ones are more inland, where the wind is lucky to get to 20 knots.

There’s a ridge down Hovard rd Maleny which looks to be about the best I have seen. It would be good to make friends with the owner. I believe some flyers in the past did the wrong thing up there and everyone got banned. Last time I was up there, I noticed the property was for sale! Hopefully there are some new sympathetic owners.

It took me a long time to learn to ds whilst standing at the top of a hill, in one direction. Then it took me a while to learn to go the other direction, whilst standing at the top. There are soo many ways to ds, it really keeps you 'hooked'.

I said:
I'm going to read more about learning DS. It seems like a different world that's hard to follow. There was a guy at a farm at Maleny who was doing it on a fairly flat section, sort of like on the top of a plateau. I didn't see but apparently it was fairly flat loops, but got faster and faster.
Interesting you say glass planes are heaps easier to DS ... I wonder how the Drongo will compare ... I guess with composites you can do it in lighter wind.
Do you mind if I put your comments on the Windsock forum?

Eric replied:
Hey Andrew, Yeah that's alright.......it just feels weird because I am still pretty much a novice, and hardly feel qualified to comment. Starting to gain confidence. I have been Ds'ing for about 10 months and first flew a glider (zagi), about 1.5 yrs ago. I have never done any form of RC before, but I am totally addicted!!

I have only met one other serious ds nut and that is Swoopdown (Michael), from RCGroups. He is a Brisbane lad and is currently on a travelling holiday.

It seems confusing at first, but I'm sure with your piloting skills and experience, you will pick it up in no time. It seems that a quality spot is the MAIN thing. The more dead air, the better and easier. I was lucky to first try it at Red Rock in Victoria, last year. It can be ds'ed on any wind direction. I remember once I made one ds circle, I couldn't stop. The only way I was driving home was when my plane/s were un-flyable. My S-15 came home in 3 pieces!!

I noticed in America they DS dam walls. I often wonder what Wivenhoe would be like?

You will be able to ds with the Drongo. Once you get it going well, throw out a glass plane and you won't believe how easy it is! They just hold there energy, and cut through the choppy air so much better. And sound better.

[ding]

Well in all my slope time I've never DSed. I am a DS virgin I have seen it done once by a guy named Chad up at Beechmont. It was very cool and I'd love to have a go at it.

I think with the skua I have the tools, we just need the when and where. Let me know... If I'm available I'll come along.

So we know it can be done at Beechmont, and I know it could be done on the hill I fly at Fraser too. We need more sites though. Maybe this can go into the location bit on the forum.

[thevon]

Hey Yeah, a "DS sites" in Locations would be good!

Also I guess I should admit that I'm a "DS virgin" too. I was too embarrassed to say it publicly, but now that you've come out about it, I'll be honest about it too. I'm starting a relationship with a Drongo that could lead to DS, but I'll have to see how I feel on the day, when we're in the right place and everything feels like it's the right thing to do. Perhaps I should order some DS-agra to help me along.

[livefibre]

Hi All,On RC Group's can I mention another forum that a chap has been clocked at 305 mph The wind they were flying in was nearly blowing their cloths off.Huge glider ,takes three people to launch.

Cheers Alan

[thevon]

Eric mentioned above a hill called the Bowl, or Ampitheatre which is near Maleny. I have done some digging to find out whether the situation has changed. I spoke to a Maleny flier who's friends with the owners, but unfortunately the owners are still very solidly against anyone flying there. I get the idea that if you tried, you might get a shotgun blast from the owner's house! Up until 6 yrs ago people could fly there but unfortunately various fliers did things like leaving rubbish around, blocking the road when they were mustering cattle, leaving gates open repeatedly and then when the owners bailed them up about it the owners were basically abused and sworn at.

This guy I spoke to has been up there for 20 years and has got to know a lot of sites and property owners and it's clear that there are other sites in the same situation (ie they hate fliers due to bad experiences). A major site at Bellthorpe which was used by the biggest Brisbane club for many years - they used to pay the owner for exclusive access to it - has now been totally closed to fliers because the owners finally got jack of inconsiderate users. The guy will literally explode if anyone goes onto the place!

Interestingly you would think that club members would be considerate but up at Maleny some of the club guys are the ones who've done the damage (so I was told).

Once the owner spits the dummy and sticks up a "no trespassers" sign, then you won't be back there in a hurry.

So if we're going to be able to keep flying it's important that we not only avoid causing problems ... we need to be extremely nice and considerate and make life better for the owners. We've done things like keep the owner updated with letters about what we're up to, and sending them a nice photo of their place with guys flying. At Shorncliiffe I've once taken a block of chocolates to an owner after retrieving a glider from their roof! Passing the hat around for a carton of beer and a thank-you card to give to an owner has to be a good long term investment.

I've put a lot of work into having a good relationship with the owners of the Mt Mee site so I'm particularly touchy about anyone stuffing that up ... if I find anyone causing problems there they'll be answering to me as well as the owner.

[ding]

That's sad to hear Andrew. I'm pretty sure I've flown at that site you mentioned and the owners were always nice to us. But, we always did the right thing and asked every day before we flew. We were very nice to their kids who used to come up and watch too.

Anyway, this is a problem that has been around through time. With the increased popularity of slope soaring it's sad but I can only see the situation getting worse

[sean]

Hey Andrew,

Excellent DS links! Here's a really cool DS video:
www.northcountyflyingmachines.com/images/J8maiden0106.mpg

This is the maiden flight of a composite NCFM design, and they hit 193mph!! The camera angle's really good in this vid so you can clearly see the DS "groove".

Here's a vid of the 56" NCFM Bluto "treeline DSing" with an Aussie pilot at the controls (Chris Nowak). It doesn't say where it is. Shows how all you really need is some dead air to fly in and out of, amazing stuff.
www.northcountyflyingmachines.com/images/Nowak1.mpg

[thevon]

That first one is really incredible. It's insane. I still mentally can't quite come to grips with it: 1) just how it all works, to create such incredible speed and 2) how you can be so coordinated to keep it there, with such fast circuits at such speed. Don't know that I'd ever be able to reach that sort of level, but I'd like to have a dabble.

[ezza]

That video of treeline ds, is Beechmont. There is huge lift on the other side of those trees, and the wind doesn't penetrate through the trees because they are nice and thick.

I wonder if Mt. Mee has any set-ups like this?

Wish I lived closer, sounds like a great day coming up!

Eric

[ding]

Yep, and I'm pretty sure its Chad Novak too. He was the guy I saw doing it.

[sean]

You're right Ding, it is is Chad Nowak, my typo . Did you see Chad DSing at Beechmont?

Eric, is the Beechmont DS site accessible to the public or is it on private land? It looks like they're standing in the property across the road from the main Beechmont site? Looks like a nasty spot to DS though, those trees are VERY close

BTW The vids above are all from this page:
www.northcountyflyingmachines.com/videoclips.htm

[thevon]

This arvo Gerard and I went to Mt Mee - Ged flew, and I got to with chainsaw and axe to do a bit of clearing. While there, I tried again to DS the Duck with the same stupid result ... planted it into the top of a tree on the edge of the rainforest! There is dead air behind the fence and it dips down into a hollow before the trees rear up. But it's only maybe a 40metre radius from one edge to the other. Problem I've had repeatedly is the Duck really picks up the speed as you dip in, then as it comes back up and hits the moving air it stalls up and ends up shooting up high. Today I realized when it happened and crossed the sticks and pulled full up to stop it but it still got blown back into a tree! Time to get the slingshot out again!
Then later before we came home Ged and I were playing around doing flypast dives. Not a lot of lift, but enough to have fun, and plenty of lift further out if you wanted height. I started coming back in turning just over the fence and noticed that the plane picked up speed, and I could go around and come in faster ... and if I went a bit further and turned just over the road it really started moving so I could do some clumsy DS-ish loops which were a lot faster than you'd expect from the amount of wind. So I think that yes, there's potential to DS there but it's a small spot and would probably suit foamies rather than bigger faster or composite planes. I'd like to get someone up there who knew how. andrew

[ezza]

Sean,
It is that private property, across the road. The trees do have a nasty habit of 'jumping out at you'

Does Chad still fly?

[ezza]

thevon said:

This arvo Gerard and I went to Mt Mee - Ged flew, and I got to with chainsaw and axe to do a bit of clearing. While there, I tried again to DS the Duck with the same stupid result ... planted it into the top of a tree on the edge of the rainforest! There is dead air behind the fence and it dips down into a hollow before the trees rear up. But it's only maybe a 40metre radius from one edge to the other. Problem I've had repeatedly is the Duck really picks up the speed as you dip in, then as it comes back up and hits the moving air it stalls up and ends up shooting up high. Today I realized when it happened and crossed the sticks and pulled full up to stop it but it still got blown back into a tree! Time to get the slingshot out again!
Then later before we came home Ged and I were playing around doing flypast dives. Not a lot of lift, but enough to have fun, and plenty of lift further out if you wanted height. I started coming back in turning just over the fence and noticed that the plane picked up speed, and I could go around and come in faster ... and if I went a bit further and turned just over the road it really started moving so I could do some clumsy DS-ish loops which were a lot faster than you'd expect from the amount of wind. So I think that yes, there's potential to DS there but it's a small spot and would probably suit foamies rather than bigger faster or composite planes. I'd like to get someone up there who knew how. andrew

Great to hear! Sounds like the bug is starting to bite. ;D

Once you start looking around, you find that most good flying sites, have a ds zone....somewhere.

To stop the stalling up, it is good to anticipate when you are about to hit the moving air. Just before you hit it you want to be on a knifedge, so that just after you hit the lift, you can yank on the elevator and it sends you back down into the dead air on the right angle. Sort of 'bounce off', the moving air.

Usually, the lower you fly, the better/faster.